Need Help: I am being sold on Watermax by Hague. Any feedback? $2700! OUCH!
Originally Posted by churlish And what makes you think the right volume of resin isn't in the tank? If that were true, the softener could never work correctly. 'm referring to your comment that the Hague Water Max is a smaller-capacity unit. I think they add resin, bacteriostat, and other components to the separate chambers to meet customer's needs so I don't know how many ft^3 they would be adding to mine--but I'm more concerned that you are saying there isn't enough cabinet space to hold enough resin to meet my needs. Also I need to personally visit their store so I can see their cut-away demo model so I can better understand your reference to the resin being vacuum packed. Diagrams photos of the unit show plenty of headspace above each layer. Capacity is stated in K grains (X 1000s of grains). How many depends on the volume and type of resin AND the number of lbs of salt used per regeneration. The largest volume of resin you can get in any cabinet model softener is like 1.2 ft3; usually 40K and a constant SFR (service flow rating) of 7-8 gpm. Exceed the constant SFR of the volume of resin and the resin can not remove 100% of the hardness, iron etc. that is in the water. Constant SFR is not stated as X gpm @ 15 psi, that is the max flow rate of the softener and meant to be used rarely and for only a few minutes. Combining any type of filtration with softening is never a good idea. You would never find that done in any market except residential. And that is usually done by shysters taking advantage of consumers' ignorance and telling them what they want to hear. And they usually sell them for very high prices. churlish please send me a PM. Thx. I just cancelled a contract for a Hague WaterMax Sytem that included the reverse osmosis filter and the 5 yr supply of Liquid Soap Products - the installed price was $6,500!! And, this was a deal compared to financing it which over a five year time period would have been $8,820. Reading the varying prices has been really enlightening - Thanks Originally Posted by captwally So many times, we are assaulted by sales weasels painting a brighter picture than is factual. And we have manufacturers adding bells and whistles that are totally unecessary. A water Softener is a water softener. Period. The End. This technology has been around for decades. Simpler is better. Less stuff to break. It's like a Mercedes Benz with windsheild washers on the headlights. Do you really need them? No you don't. If you want them, who am I to say not to get it? But it's just one more thing that can go wrong. Windshield wipers on headlights won't impede the operation of the car, but fancy digital displays and computer boards in close proximity to salt and water fail frequently and WILL cause you problems. So many times I see a unit I install for $800 being sold for $1500, or one worth $2000 being sold for SIX TO NINE THOUSAND DOLLARS, and it's the EXACT same equipment! Someone is making a serious boat payment! 100% true. The bells and whistles are OK if you like to think you got alot for what you paid, but surely not necessary. Case in point...... we have a Rainsoft softener with the mechanical head and it's been kicking since 1997. A gear set in the main motor did wear out, but other than that it works great all the time and there is very little that can go wrong. The service guy said even though they also have digital models, the mechanical units like we have are still their best overall. Later! My Hague Watermax System Control did the Beeping thing and couldn't find HOME. It regenerated over and over until the salt tank was almost spilling over with water. I unpluged the module and now it's dead. The light comes on but that it. I can't find my paperwork. I did get it in 2004, as I can locate the zero balance sheet from the finance company. How do I get in contact with the folks that can help me get it repaired, or replaced? Thanks I would start by contacting Hague to see if any warranty is left on the unit. Hague claims to have the best/longest warranty. I've written to a few Hague e-mails in the past and gotten NO response. Today, I did find a better working website for a facility in Columbus, OH. I've left my contact information and description of the problem at that site. I hope I get something from that. From some of the posts in this thread, it would appear that I will have 6 years left on the electronics warranty. Lots of misguided info in this thread. One fellow claimed to work for Hague but could not spell the company, hmm. Then there are price quotes that are far less than dealer cost if we're talking about the hague watermax. I know because I have worked for a multi brand softener co, including Hague. When you get quoted a softener price which includes installation it's going to vary state to state. Here's some reasons: In most states, an installed water softener is considerred a home improvement which means sales tax is based on dealer cost. California is not one of those states. Here, even if the dealer quotes tax included, the tax is based on the selling price paid. Do all of them do that? No, but to the consumer they look like the good guy. Next is the plumbing job. I've seen some hack jobs. This isn't a simple plug in appliance. You cannot have soft water on your lawns, therefore many houses require a hard/raw water line to the back or front lawn. That line by code is supposed to be buried 18 deep. Do all installers do this? No, it's labor expensive. Sometimes the drain line or hard water line for the back yard goes through the attic. That should not be done in pvc, it should be at least pex for durability. And how much copper is being used, where? Pex and copper obviously cost more than pvc. Does the company install water hammer softeners to quiet down the regeneration bang on loud units? Also consider if you live in a freezing climate. The company I worked for wasn't the cheapest (nowhere near the $9k-$11k range) but we insulated pipes and/or put a shed around the system on outdoor installations. How's the R/O installed? What was done under the sink? Did they use the dishwasher air gap or did they drill a new hole for the dedicated faucet? I used to see billing and I've seen proper installs take as long as 15-18 hours. In some areas the home is pre-plumbed for a water softener with a loop and in that case a softener can be installed in 3 hours or less which could affect price too. When you are talking about an installation of a water softener sometimes it's unwise to go with the cheapest bidder, kinda like cheap tools. I am in the business and have been so for more than a decade. I have sold Culligan, EcoWater, and Hague Quality Water. Culligan is now manufactured in Mainland China, and they are overpriced for what you get. If I had to chose a brand other than Hague for my home I would choose EcoWater. EcoWater has a strong warranty and a product that actually works over the long haul with minimal service. The WaterMax from Hague Quality Water does much more than just soften your water. WaterMax will consistently deliver to you ZERO grain water. Other brands will give you softened water, but will not always give you ZERO grain, Soft Water. The WaterMax will also remove sand, silt, sediment, and 95% of the free chlorine in the first chamber. In the second chamber it will remove the remaining 5% of the chlorine and reduce disolved gasses such as Volitile Organic Compounds including Pesticides, Fungicides, Herbicides, Organic Gasses, Fertilizers, etc. In the third chamber if removes the Hardness from your water. Prices range from dealer to dealer, just as home prices range from area to area. Just because you can buy a house for $100,000 in Oklahoma does not mean that you can buy the same home for the same price in New York City. A Water Softener is a Water Softener is a Water Softener, just like a car is a car is a car, everybody knows that is not true, you get what you pay for. Hague WaterMax is a Whole House Water Filtration system which includes Softening. For all of you out there even if you don't buy Hague, don't get stuck in analysis paralysis. Do something because just about anything will beat what is coming out your tap right now. I hope this was helpful. Dial tone, you can give Hague Quality Water International a call directly and they will have a dealer service you. (614) 836-2115 I hope this helps. if all you want/need is soft water, there are literally hundreds of options, most of them quite inexpensive, in the hundreds of dollars rather than the thousands. my well water was not only extremely hard, it had lots of iron and the Watermax handles that perfectly. and, in fact, if you visit a website for an inexpensive water softener, they will often have a link or statement - got iron? call us, meaning extra $$$. the reduced regeneration time saves salt and water, although for me both are cheap and plentiful. the only major caveat, and my installer was quite chagrined when he realized he had not warned me, if your hot water tank has a magnesium anode, it will be a problem down the line. it might not be a bad idea to replace it preemptively with an aluminum one. you'll know the magnesium one has gone bad when the hot water starts getting smelly, and by then the anode might be corroded into place and difficult to change. I LOVE MY WATERMAX. Originally Posted by arrietty7 if all you want/need is soft water, there are literally hundreds of options, most of them quite inexpensive, in the hundreds of dollars rather than the thousands. my well water was not only extremely hard, it had lots of iron and the Watermax handles that perfectly. and, in fact, if you visit a website for an inexpensive water softener, they will often have a link or statement - got iron? call us, meaning extra $$$. the reduced regeneration time saves salt and water, although for me both are cheap and plentiful. the only major caveat, and my installer was quite chagrined when he realized he had not warned me, if your hot water tank has a magnesium anode, it will be a problem down the line. it might not be a bad idea to replace it preemptively with an aluminum one. you'll know the magnesium one has gone bad when the hot water starts getting smelly, and by then the anode might be corroded into place and difficult to change. I LOVE MY WATERMAX. It's a good feeling beleiving you have made the right decision. I hiope yours is trouble free fro many years to come. But with 8-9 parts iron and no freeboard I hope it can keep up. Iron in my area is not nearly that high and WaterBosses die a relatively young age. Yes, they do filter elements out and the upper chamber can contain carbon for odor removal. I'm what your choices are when the carbon burns out? It will need to be replaced and that can be done. I am surprised that the resins were only predicted to last 8 - 10 years. Anyway, good luck with your unit. Andy Christensen, CWS-II The watermax is not to be confused with a plain old fashioned softener! Again THE WATERMAX IS NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH A PLAIN OLD FASHIONED SOFTENER! Look everybody reading this PAY ATTENTION! Culligan = china/softner $$ Ecowater = softener $ Rayne = softener $$$$ Hague's watermax = FULL HOUSE FILTRATION 3 compartments/filters NEVER HAVE TO BE CHANGED OUT!!!!! 38 configurations based on their accurate in house analysis...not the standard yep, just as I suspected hardness cookie cutter type tests culligan does. WATER IS DIFFERENT ALL OVER THE COUNTRY FOLKS! I live in CA and we have crap water in my county, lots of ma and pa softening outfits and the big boys. HAGUE dominates in every category...trust me I have done the SEARS replace every 2-5 years and the CALL-AGAIN CULLIGAN service program ($5000 for their best unit and I still had maintenance issues like you wouldn't believe!) Don't bother with these fly by nighters or these commercial giants that make a living on the maintainance nightmares, just spend the extra cash up front and do it right the first time. Get the HAGUE and get the hardness and the CHEMICALS and VOC's like THM's (which are carcinogens), chlorine, pesticides, herbicides etc. that absorb into your bloodstream in a matter of seconds upon skin contact. Trust me I am a chemist, and this is not good stuff. A standard culligan/eco/sears/rayne softener cannot get these out of your water! If you want clean water you need to get eqiupment designed to handle the garbage we face in our water nowadays. GO AND GET THE HAGUE ALREADY!!!!! LET MY EXPERIENCE HELP THE REST OF YOU!!!!! I have been researching water softeners/filters and other esoteric water treatment systems for a few weeks now. From what I've seen the Hague is clearly overpriced and probably overcomplicated. Yes it is a whole-house filter and softener, but I feel it would be better to buy a separate softener and filter (either reverse osmosis or backwashing). In general neither of those items should cost you more than around $500 to $800 for an average family, and you may not need both. The only place I could see a Hague model is if space is limited and you can't fit a separate filter and softener (if you need both). Space is a legitimate concern for many people, so it's fine if that's your issue and if you really need softening and filtering. Keep in mind that the main place you'll want filtered water is really your kitchen sink, and possibly bathrooms, so a filter that goes under a kitchen sink really gives you 90% of the benefits of a whole house filter. How often do you drink water from the other faucets in your house? Yes, most softeners probably aren't going to get you to 0 grains, but remember, hard water is just calcium and magnesium, these are both minerals that your body needs, a little bit is good for you, and is certainly better than the sodium a softener replaces them with. The main beneficiary of soft water is really your pipes and appliances, and 1-2 grains isn't going to cause them a problem. Many people actually prefer slightly harder water for showers and washing. Your main filtration options are backwashing filters and reverse osmosis filters. The RO filters do a slightly better job of general filtration but the backwashing filters are more flexible and allow you to tailer the filtration to your needs, so you can also do things like adjust the Ph of the water easily. For the price of a Hague you could get a quality softener, a quality whole-house backwashing filter and a RO filter on your kitchen sink for ultimate control. The high-quality cars analogy is mostly bunk as well. Cars have thousands of parts, some of which can be extremly luzurious (like heated leather seats). A water softener has apprioximately 10, and the only one that is particularly intricate is the valve. You can make a diamond-studded platinum tank if you want to, but I'm sure not buying it. (cut-away diagram of a softener at How Softeners Work - how many parts do you count?) my dad had a hague, he was sent letters from the dealer saying if he didn't pay for anual maintenance then they would cancel his warranty (annual maintenance $195 per year). we got kinetico, 14 years and never paid for a maintenance call, my neighbor has his kinetico for 24 years and 1 maintenance call (he needed to get a prefilter set up) $49.! hague systems need their resins changing out more regulary than most as they have small amounts of lots of things - total crap and overpriced! did you forget about kinetico? my kinetico has a full 10 year warranty on the entire system, if you've worked in the industry then you'll know that 25 yr and lifetime warranties for hague and culligan are just on the tanks not on the parts that will need replacing - same for all the rest. Ouch is a pretty good description for Hague! I had a Culligan before switching over and regret not going back. We have had extremely poor service and follow-up from Hague. Culligan was by far more customer oriented, at least for us. I am going to research the other posts here for Kinetico...sounds like they are good bet. I have only had the Hague since April 06 and can tell you first hand that we too were pressured to buy the same time the marketeer was here and fell prey to the advertising. Just a note, Hague had a front-end guy at Home Depot, that is where I made the initial contact so be leary of those marketing folks at the retail stores. Good luck in your selection !! Originally Posted by oldchevyluver Ouch is a pretty good description for Hague! I had a Culligan before switching over and regret not going back. We have had extremely poor service and follow-up from Hague. Culligan was by far more customer oriented, at least for us. I am going to research the other posts here for Kinetico...sounds like they are good bet. I have only had the Hague since April 06 and can tell you first hand that we too were pressured to buy the same time the marketeer was here and fell prey to the advertising. Just a note, Hague had a front-end guy at Home Depot, that is where I made the initial contact so be leary of those marketing folks at the retail stores. Good luck in your selection !! Sorry you have had unfortunate service problems. Each dealer can behave very differently. Some Hague dealers are responsive and some Culligan dealers may not. Where is your location? What kind of water conditins do you have? What type of 'service problems' did you have (equipment, personnel?)? Kineticos work very differnetly than Hagues or Culligans. I'll try to help if you want. Andy Christensen, CWS-II Is there anything special about your install? If not then his price should be around $2,300. That is what I am getting mine for and I live in an expensive part of our country. And yes its the full blown WaterMax and not one of the lesser models. I know this post is old, however dansav is right - depending on exactly what you buy somewhere between 2300 and 3000 should be right. The Hague system itself is a very good system. I had my first one for about 10 years when we damaged the case about a year ago I replaced it with another Hague. What makes this system better than others is that it is customizable to your water. If anyone was trying to sell me a water conditioning system without first testing my water I would run them off with a shotgun. And I do not mean testing my water with some made up chemical in my living room. An actual water report, sample water sent to an actual lab. 2 weeks later with results in hand returns to my home with system in hand and actually shows me what I need and how much and where. Thats what my dealer did. The Rainsoft (for $7000 btw) did a couple of color test at my kitchen table and told me I had chlorine in my water. DAH! Go figure that, I have chlorine in my City Water. I got my shotgun out...and called Hague For those of you stating problems, what I am hearing is problems with their dealers. I do not actually hear too many problems with the system itself. I guess I am fortunate that I have a great dealer. And for those who say a water softener is a water softener is a watersoftener - you're wrong. They are as different as a Mercedes is from a Daewoo. However, if all you can afford is a Daewoo then by all means by a Daewoo, but do not expect it to run for 25 years. The Hague System completely cleans itself and has a 3 year everything warranty and a 25 year parts warranty. Originally Posted by GreenTurtle If you want to explore salt-free options I believe the best site on the whole internet is [LINK REMOVED] Another DAH! He sells water softeners so sure he's going to bash everything in site. Do you work for him? Originally Posted by WaterChemistry Again THE WATERMAX IS NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH A PLAIN OLD FASHIONED SOFTENER! Look everybody reading this PAY ATTENTION! Culligan = china/softner $$ Ecowater = softener $ Rayne = softener $$$$ Hague's watermax = FULL HOUSE FILTRATION 3 compartments/filters NEVER HAVE TO BE CHANGED OUT!!!!! 38 configurations based on their accurate in house analysis...not the standard yep, just as I suspected hardness cookie cutter type tests culligan does. WATER IS DIFFERENT ALL OVER THE COUNTRY FOLKS! I live in CA and we have crap water in my county, lots of ma and pa softening outfits and the big boys. HAGUE dominates in every category...trust me I have done the SEARS replace every 2-5 years and the CALL-AGAIN CULLIGAN service program ($5000 for their best unit and I still had maintenance issues like you wouldn't believe!) Don't bother with these fly by nighters or these commercial giants that make a living on the maintainance nightmares, just spend the extra cash up front and do it right the first time. Get the HAGUE and get the hardness and the CHEMICALS and VOC's like THM's (which are carcinogens), chlorine, pesticides, herbicides etc. that absorb into your bloodstream in a matter of seconds upon skin contact. Trust me I am a chemist, and this is not good stuff. A standard culligan/eco/sears/rayne softener cannot get these out of your water! If you want clean water you need to get eqiupment designed to handle the garbage we face in our water nowadays. GO AND GET THE HAGUE ALREADY!!!!! LET MY EXPERIENCE HELP THE REST OF YOU!!!!! A bit excited but again, right. Did I mention the President of Hague is now the head of The National Water Quality Association?Beer 4U2 Look, as I stated earlier - if the person trying to sell you a water softener is doing food color test in your kitchen, run him off. Thats going to tell you everything you need to know about the company and nothing about their equipment. It all begins with you. A lot of numbers are thrown around on product warranties, performance and efficiencies. Wouldn't it be better to actually post official documentation rather than summarize which can be very misleading. Don't forget the word limited when describing warranty and what it means. If a salesman comes to my door and quotes a tons of benefits without any illustrations, demonstration or documentation, then is get out, what was it(?) the shot gun. Hague - 25 Year Limited Warranty Andy Christensen, CWS-II I have a watermax in my house i bought. the controller won't keep the time. i set the time but it stays the same. also when i manually regenerated it it will stay in backwash 1. In mode 1 there used to be a way to set the days of the week but it is no longer an option. How the heck did those options it disappear??? If anyone is interested i'm kind of fed up and i don't like going thru a dealer for parts and service. another controller will probably cost more than another store bought unit. I have 2 hague watermax units. So great for extra parts. Only one controller and it doesn't seem to work. I have the other controller but it won't power on. 63BAQ 62APQ For the person with the home error problem. there is a sensor located inside the 6 button digital controller so if the controller isn't locked in place you will get the home error You have the 6 button control? I know that the controls that Hague used when the first Water Max came out had some 5 generations ... because of failures with in the control. I have had a hague water max for over 15 years, I love it! Sure it costs a bit but I have never had a problem with it. Set it up, add salt and nothing more until it needs salt again. We use to have water stains on the shower walls and had to replace a dishwasher because of the hard water, and sometimes got that rotten egg smell, none of that since we put this into service, it is well worth the money to me!
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