NTI Trinity boiler -- Opinions? Anyone heard of 'em?
The Question: Has anyone heard of the NTI (New York Thermal) Trinity boiler? They claim to be the most efficient (94%) etc. but a quick search of this forum turns up 0 hits so I'm just wonderin'... I can post a link to the system but not sure if that's allowed - this is my first post after gleaning lots of useful info by lurking. Background info: Just moved into a house built in 1978 w/ hydronic baseboard heat. Boiler is original and with 5000+ sq feet to heat I'm thinking about replacing the boiler sometime in the next year or two as funds allow. I'm just starting to do research now. Thanks. Sorry, I've never heard of them. Heating 5000 sq. ft., I think you would be ahead of the game to install 2 boilers have them staged. At 90+% efficient you can get several boilers including Buderus, Peerless, Weil-Mclain, etc., some of which are modulating. Only a small percentage of the time would you need anywhere near the full capacity. A single modulating or two small boilers is overall more efficient than one large one. Thanks for the feedback. The Trinity I mentioned is a modulating unit. Is it okay for me to post a link to their site? Thanks. Certainly, I'd like to read about them. http://www.nythermal.com/Products/bo...as/trinity.htm thanks! we had a trinity boiler installed 2 years ago but have had it turned off for the last 1/2 year. We have not been able to find anyone to service it and the heating costs were so high Just had an NTI Trinity Ti150 installed last month. I paired it up with a Weil Mclain Indirect DHW. Very happy with it. I live in Canada were it can get to -35 in January. My home is approx. 3000sq/ft and I have 3 stories. It runs Grundfos circulation pumps which are very smooth and dependable. Wall hung, 93% AFUE, Condensing, modulating what more can you ask for. In our store we carry carry the trinity boilers, as well the weil-mclain and the peerless. We installed many boiler here in NY from all the manufactures and the different models. We found the trinity to have the least problems and issues. The only problem we faced was the plumbers in the market today. It seems that they keep insisting on installing the high efficiency boilers just as they installing the regular ones. The Trinity boiler is the cheapest we found in the high efficiency boiler and the smallest (14''-15''-22'') and it does work great with all the indirect water heaters we had until today. [sorry, advertising not allowed...] Do a proper heatloss calculation before deciding on boilers. The Trinity wouldn't be high an my list because the heat exchanger is so restrictive in design, meaning that maintenance is more critical and you'll spend more in electricity for the boiler loop pump, especially if you want to use the low water pressure safety switch option. Yes, we have one but at the moment we have a vibration problem that is affecting our neighbors..just put up a post about it in hope of a solution...other than that it works well!! Most mod/cons today are 95%+ AFUE. I agree on the heat loss and two boilers. Also measure the radiation for proper heating curve adjustments. After the heat loss is done size the boilers each for 60% of the load using the DOE Output or Gross Output not the net output. This will give you a good economical operation. Uhh, look at the date on the original post. I think that after four years the OP has probably decided on a boiler without our help. NY Thermal has been producing the Trinity boiler for about 8 years now. And it’s still hard to find a service technician to work on one. Trust me you will need a service technician, because NY Thermal requires that the boiler heat exchanger is serviced once every 2 years minimum. This job requires a special tool and is a major service (see attached). I know it’s not unusual to require yearly or by-yearly maintenance, but when all the servicemen in your area just shrug there shoulders and say “never heard of em’” that could be an issue. This unit will also require a combustion analysis on start up and is not very forgiving if the venting is not done properly. If I were to recommend a boiler it would be the Triangle Tube Solo series. Less cleaning, more forgiving and gaining a great name quickly. http://www.nythermal.com/pdfs/Cleani...ionChamber.pdf Well now I just feel silly... oh well, moving on. I have been looking for a higher efficiency boiler for a friend of mine. Ran across an ad on Craigslist where someone was selling a couple Trinity boilers that would have worked. In reading the posts here I have determined that I probably should stay away from the Trinity because of their high maintenance and probable lack of qualified repair people in the rural area where my friend lives. Unless it's a Ti series, or the new LX... run from it. The T series is chock full of fun We bought this house that was just under a year old, in 2004, and it had a new NTI boiler system heating the house by way of (fan coil), in floor heating in the basement, and our hot water tank. In the first year the system continually shut down, and we spent more then $3000 during the next three years, hiring a plumber to continually repair the NTI boiler. The costs were mostly for the electronics of the system, none of which were covered under warranty, as we had no idea who installed the system. On Christmas Eve of 2004, the whole system shut down, and we had to heat our home with electric heaters. In the fall of 2007, the boiler failed and became irreparable due to water damage and rust throughout the boiler. This damage was also causing exhaust to leak into our home. Obviously, this could have been catastrophic for our family. I contacted NTI directly by way of letter requesting their assistance in replacing the unit, but they ignored me completely. Their area representative did show some interest at first in helping us, but quickly abandoned me when it was determined that the whole unit would have to be replaced. As such, I contacted a local plumbing company and requested a quote on replacing the boiler with a forced air system, and gas water heaters for the in-floor heating and hot water. Their owner came, and after looking everything over, told me that the NTI boiler system was a good system, that NTI had made significant changes to the boiler for the better, and that his company could replace it for $8000. However, he told me that he would get in touch with NTI and seek their financial help in paying for a new boiler, and led me to believe that the costs would be greatly reduced. He seemed sincere in that the bill would be much less then $8000. With winter coming on, I was anxious to ensure that we had heat in the house, and took this man at his word. We had the new NTI boiler system installed. Unfortunately, after the work was done, NTI refused to provide any sort of financial assistance for their new boiler. Even worse, the plumbing company did not include the cost of extra parts and some pumps that had to be replaced, and the final bill came to $9400. Within a few days of having it installed, I found a leaking pipe from a connection made by the installer. This had nothing to do with the boiler itself. I called the company to come and repair it, which he did. Over the next few days, I found four more leaks from joints, which I cut out and replaced myself. From that time until recently, the boiler has performed as it should. A few weeks ago, I noticed water dripping from the boiler. I determined that the leak was coming from the top of the unit, at a joint that was not sealed properly in the exhaust pipe. After two weeks of waiting for parts, the same plumbing company came today, and replaced the top of the NTI boiler. The cost of the boiler parts were covered under warranty, however, I had to pay almost $200 for the plastic vent pipes and the labor. Because I had not noticed the leak sooner, the interior of the boiler system is now rusted and water damaged, again...! In any case, although I am happy that NTI has covered the top of the boiler this time, the first time around we only received about four years of service from the boiler. In 2007 we spent $9400 on the same NTI boiler system, and now at just over two years, the boiler is in need of repairs and again starting to cost us money. In hindsight, I should have found another company, and simply replaced the boiler with a high efficiency forced air furnace, and be done with it. I will never again take a chance on installing any sort of boiler system, because there are just too many parts, pumps, joints and tubing, just waiting to fail. A forced air furnace is much less likely to break down, and if it does, it is never as serious nor expensive to repair, and you do not have to worry about the water damage. Finally, if you do consider buying a boiler, I would suggest you stay away from NTI, as in my experience and opinion, their products are not reliable, they do not stand by their equipment, and they have absolutely no concern for the fact that their product was directing exhaust into our home. They just ignored us. I am an installer and technician on NTI Trinitys, all models, covering a good chunk of Montana and Idaho. I also service just about every other mod/con boiler, including similar Lochinvar Knights and Munchkins, among others. First, the main problems I have encountered are problems that can be directly associated with BAD INSTALLATIONS! Some installers just can not seem to follow the factory manual on how these units need to be installed. They cannot read, or if they can, they cannot execute what they read! First, no reputable service company that deals with Munchkins or Lochinvar Knights should have any issues with installing, calibrating, and servicing the components in these boilers. Many components are interchangeable among the brands. The boiler vessels come from the same manufacturer. So do the gas valves and blower assemblies. The key differences are the electronics and the fact that Knights and Munchkins come as high and low altitude versions (the high altitude versions run the minimum blower speed at a higher RPM). The Trinity's have one version and can be calibrated to any altitude. I have reinstalled a number of these boilers that were sold over the internet to unsuspecting DIY's (not allowed anymore if you want a warranty). They had all developed problems due to installation and lack of calibration. I have had units that I installed new that are now into their seventh season with NO issues other than cleaning, required at least every two years. All the reinstallations that I have done have been exceptionally trouble free. To repeat, the majority of problems that develop with these units, any version, are installation related. That is also true of Knights and Munchkins and practically any other boiler! Personally, I find the Trinity's the easiest to install and service. The Sentry controller is much easier to set up than either the Munchkin or Knight, simple and straight forward. All the mod/con boilers using these heat exchangers, and that includes Knights and Peerless and Munchkins, require that the burner chamber be opened and cleaned at least every two years, annually if in dusty air conditions, to remove sulfate buildup and ash residue. Propane has more impurities than NG and may require annual cleanings. You do not need special equipment to do this for any of the above boilers. CLR household cleaner and a small stiff nylon brush (like used for BBQ cleaning) work just fine in removing the sulfates. Use a pressurized water source (garden hose with sprayer) to thoroughly rinse afterward (until condensate drain runs clear). The rear insulating target wall will need removed prior to cleaning to avoid damage. DO HIRE A PROFESSIONAL TO DO THIS! It is worth the money! A bad reassembly could result in CO or combustible gas leakage! The Trinity is a solid piece of equipment if properly installed. NTI has more experience with these type of boilers than any of the other manufacturers. Again, get a knowledgeable installer to do the install and you will have few problems. This is an addendum to my earlier reply, and relates to the customer who had a heat exchanger failure that allowed exhaust gas leakage. This reply applies as well to other mod/con boilers including Knight and Munchkin. First, it is best to use softened water in this systems or water less than 3 grains hardness. Very hard water in these systems, especially a very large capacity one, can cause calcium sulfate precipitating onto the narrow passages of the heat exchanger, creating hot spots that will eventually cause fracturing of the water tube coils. This problem can be exacerbated if a small system leak results in a continuing resupply of fresh intake water. Always check water quality and supply softened water if necessary. Secondly, some installers continue to use non-oxygen barrier PEX tubing in their installations, and then incorporate iron pumps and ferrous plumbing fittings in the installation (and NTI supplies some of these fittings which should be replaced with brass in this case). There is nothing that is quite as corrosive as oxygen heavy hot water on iron/steel components. What happens is that the rust/sludge produced contains magnetite. This, like calcium, precipitates in the hot narrow passages of the heat exchanger, and just like a hard water issue, eventually causes hot spots that fracture the heat exchanger. If PEX is used in an installation and it is NOT oxygen barrier tubing, insure that there is no place in the system that ferrous metal components are used and you should have no issues. The alternative is to incorporate an external plate heat exchanger into the primary loop to isolate the ferrous parts of the system from the Trinity. Failure due to the above issues are not warranty issues. This is a read the manual and common sense issue. Me hat's off to ya TT, ya sound like ya know what yer doing, a rarity for installers these days! About the softened water... wouldn't this softened water likely be higher in Chlorides? and there's no detrimental affect in this? Commercial and industrial boilers routinely use softened water. A properly operating water softener does NOT increase the chlorides in the water. I can relate to the problems you have experienced with your trinity boilers. I bought a new t200combi in 2004. Once installed and up and running, the boiler would just shut off randomly when there was a call for hot water. Sometimes it would work and sometimes not. At first i thought i was simply exceeding the capacity of the boiler because the water would come out warm, then hot , then cold. After checking the flow of my showerhead i realized that the boiler should produce twice what i was using therefore something must be wrong. I assumed it had something to do with my installation so i read and read and read. I studied every page of trinitys installation manual, their troubleshooting manual. I even downloaded a copy of their service manual for the service techs. I could find nothing wrong with the installation whatsoever. After about a year of dealing with occastional cold and lukewarm water, I talked to a factory rep who told me that their were a bunch of units that went out with faulty sentry controllers. there is a transistor inside the sentry that was bad. This would cause the unit to constantly shut down and reset causing hot cold water cycles for the domestic, and sometimes the heating cycle. Since it had been over a year NTI wouldnt help me with the cost of the part even though the thing was defective since the day i bought it. I bought a new sentry for around 300 dollars and installed it and then the boiler worked amazingly well. I had more hot water than i thought was possible. The unit worked fine until that winter. The temp reached 25 degrees one day and on that day, the boiler decided not to light. After much troubleshooting i found the fenwal controller to be bad. That costs around 250. I installed it and the unit fired right up and worked again. When replacing the fenwal i also noticed water leaking from the top of the boiler. It was coming from where the upper exhaust vent attatches to the combustion chamber. I replaced the gasket and have two more times since then. The gasket or maybe the design seems to be problematic. Other than that, I have replaced the flame probe once and the ignitor twice. Cant complain about that too much since they get alot of use in a boiler that cycles on and off all the time. Those you should expect to replace every couple years anyways. All in all the boiler works fantastic when it is up and running. I too feel that nti should have stepped up and replaced the defective components. Their reps knew that the sentry was defective from the factory on some units and it seems pretty cheap not to stand behind your product especially when you know that it was manufactured with defects. If NTI would have shown some class and at least covered the cost of the parts i would have been a customer for life. But as it stands, I will be replacing my t200Combi with another brand when the old girl eventually bites the dust. Is'nt it about overall heating costs? Are not those small persentages between 87 the low 90's dimishing returns? I know I have a normal masonary stack that would cost plenty today compared to a PVC vent, but compared to the high maintenance of the modcoms, at this time I think I am about even. I know we cant do a lot of work on our newer cars and trucks, and we can see the same thing coming with our boilers and stuff. So until that day I am happy with my Biasi boiler, my Riello burner, inderect DHW, and most of the other control toys.For example, between March 1 and April 30, I burned .8 gal per day, in the non heating season, I burn .5 gal per day. for DHW. Cost wise that cant be too far off from the modcoms. Sid Sorry I sort of hijacked this thread. Sid we had a trinity ti150 installed in Sep 09, and other than a creepy installer, the unit has worked fantastic. we're using it for 3 hot water zone heat, plus an extra zone for an indirect hot water heater. luckily i had this forum and the nti site to help me unravel some of the **** my installer tried to get away with. first, he said we don't need the outside temp sensor, its a waste. then he tells me we also don't need to run the pvc intake pipe outside, just to let the thing suck basement air. i convinced him to do the proper install according the manual, and he complied under duress. yesterday we had no hot water, but after spending a couple of hours trying to figure it out, with help from my son we eliminated the 24V transformer, and the air control switch. what was causing the boiler not to start up was water in the intake elbow below the boiler. water was getting sucked up and into the little plastic tubes going to the air controller. as soon as i pulled the tube off and removed the water in the elbow, the unit started up no problem. so....double check the installer knows what he's doing, no matter how many units they tell you they've installed. if anyone lives on long island in suffolk county and you know a good mod/con tech, please let me know.
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